j4 | Banker

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Banker

Just had the most maddening conversation ever with Alliance & Leicester's internet banking helpdesk. Notes here mostly for my own benefit because I'll write them up into a proper complaint before moving to a different bank.

While trying to make a one-off payment online, I got the following error:

Microsoft VBScript runtime error '800a000d'

Type mismatch: 'CInt'

E:\INETPUB\WWWROOT\IBREBUILD\MOVE_MONEY\../includes/validation.asp, line 191

So I phoned the internet banking helpdesk and told them that I had tried to make a payment online but halfway through the process had had "a VBScript runtime error". The man I spoke to immediately said "that's your software, that's nothing to do with us". I said (trying to be polite) that I didn't think it was my software, that I was using Safari; he just repeated insistently and dismissively that it was the way my software was set up. Suspecting that this might be a default we-don't-support-Macs position, I said "Are you saying that I can't use Safari for internet banking?" and he said no, it was a software problem. (I don't think he had a clue what 'Safari' was, to be honest.) I insisted that the problem was with their site, not with my software.

He then asked me to go through the steps I'd gone through before to get to the error, so that he could watch what was happening; I started to do this, telling him what I was doing at each stage (though at every step he interrupted what I was saying to tell me what to do). When I got to the point of selecting an account, I realised that what I'd done the previous time was to select the Premier Direct Account (the default in the drop-down menu -- it's some kind of useless savings account that I can't make payments out of) instead of the Current Account. I said that I'd realised that I'd done the wrong thing before, but offered to retrace my steps so that he could debug the error. He said no, and said that so long as I could do what I wanted now, that was the main thing. I said that that was one of the main things, but that surely it would be useful to see why such a bad error was coming up, and pointed out that my confidence in their internet banking was not helped by such an appalling failure mode. At this point he started being extremely patronising and tried to explain to me that "if it doesn't like the things you put in, then you get an error, that's how it works". I pointed out that I'm a professional web developer and I understand about bad user input, but I also understand about sensible validation of user input, proper error handling, and user-friendly error messages. He did reluctantly conceded that the error message could be "a bit more user friendly" but otherwise insisted that my computer and my software were the problem; he also rarely let me finish anything I tried to say, at one point interrupting me with "We use computers here, Mrs Knight" (he got my name wrong several times during the conversation).

Trying to end the conversation before I got any more angry, I asked if there was a way that I could submit a full bug report; he said that the email address was on the website, and gave me directions to where to find it. (Following those directions in fact leads not to an email address, nor even a link to a form, but to a brief instruction on how to send a secure message when you're logged in to internet banking.)

Perhaps a new New Year's Resolution (no, I haven't forgotten, but I haven't done them yet either) should be to find a bank whose internet banking isn't shit. :-/ Any recommendations?

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I've used Lloyds for years, they seem OK.

Then again, they have a Bond villain for a CEO and seem to be responsible for about half the national debt, so who knows?

I have used Lloyds for years and their internet banking seems to work well; they haven't yet imposed either Mastercard Annoying Security Popup or anything requiring putting your credit card in a small plastic box.

They do have a robot phone you up whenever you set up a standing order and ask you to type in a number, but this isn't a great inconvenience.

Edited 2010-01-25 21:03 (UTC)

To be fair, I do get Mastercard Annoying Security Popup on some (but not all) internets transactions.

Edited 2010-01-26 08:32 (UTC)

Agh, burninate him like Trogdor!

He did reluctantly conceded that the error message could be "a bit more user friendly"

Yeah, so you could understand it with your simple lady mind, and not be bothering the important helpdesk people who use computers

What an absolute cvnt.

The hilarious thing is that I've probably been using computers for longer than he's been alive.

I've probably had more girlfriends than him too. :-D

Supplemental question: are there any banks that let you test drive their internet banking before you get an account with them? (I had a quick look round before I changed banks and didn't find anything, but that was nearly a decade ago.)

But good grief, A+L need to get a clue.

are there any banks that let you test drive their internet banking before you get an account with them?

Now that would be excellent! The tragic thing is that I bet none of them would even consider it, even though by doing that they could a) get more customers and b) get tons of free testing done for them.

I suspect the objection would be "security", ie stopping teh evil phishers finding out what their website looks like (because phishers can't get bank accounts, and don't know people who can get bank accounts).

even though by doing that they could a) get more customers

Well, surely only in the hypothetical case where the online barking doesn't suck? Perhaps they all know that if they let any prospective customer see their web service before it's too late to back out...

So far (out of two...), S|E|B had, by far, the best internet banking I've used. Unfortunately, they don't provide any sort of sane banking in the UK.

True.

I have to keep reminding myself that businesses are not interested in getting things right, providing a good service, etc. :-(

Well, it's always possible to sign up for the account and not put any money into it - I did this to try out Barclays, and decided I hated their authentication system.

it's always possible to sign up for the account and not put any money into it

Most of the switching services/benefits require you to put a certain amount of money into the new account, though. I don't want to have to switch all my standing orders, dds etc over by hand -- I'd rather let the bank make a mess of it, otherwise I'll just make a mess of it myself & have nobody to shout at when I lose all my money. :-(

The Co-op used to provide an on-line demo of their Internet banking thing, but that was in 1998 when Internet banking was new and shiny (and ISTR mysteriously involved an enormous pile of Java).

Lloyds internet banking generally just works for me, though I haven't tried to report any bugs.

Nationwide also generally just works, however I have once reported a bug by email and not had a particularly positive experience, though not as bad as the one you describe. [The bug was that they messed up the quoting of commas in their CSV downloads.]

Well, first I feel your pain having just closed the accounts I had with A&L now that the house purchase is over. They were, TBH, without a doubt the worst internet banking site I have ever used. I am now with First Direct who have been absolutely fine for the year I have used their banking.

Their banking site opens in a popup window once you login, which I find annoying, and response rates from the server can be a little slow. But the UI is fine, it does what it says on the tin, I can use any HSBC branch to pay stuff in, and the telephone banking staff are extremely helpful.

I think they will give both of us a small bung if you decide to take up a recommendation.

I used to have a credit card with First Direct, but that was when I was still on dialup and not really doing e-banking. I seem to recall I closed it when they brought in some evil charges that I objected to and because I never used the credit card anyway but I can't remember. I'll have a look again, & drop you a line if I do go for them, if that's okay?

OTOH, they are part of HSBC ... I had a current account with HSBC for years (starting with their student a/c) and they were awful. Their internet banking helpline was useless too, and when I switched from them to A&L it took me over six months to get HSBC to close my account, during which time they dicked about and lied to me and were generally a big steaming bucket of fail. :-{ I think, actually, A&L still haven't messed me about as much as HSBC did!

Sorry, I didn't mean that to turn into The Rant About Banks I Have Known & Loathed. :-}

HSBC have been infinitely less crap - for me - than Lloyds. Your mileage will doubtless vary.

Oh was going to recommend HSBC too but maybe not. I've found them best out of Lloyds, Natwest (who once wrote to me to tell me they didn't have my address) and HSBC.

(who once wrote to me to tell me they didn't have my address)

LOL.

I'm another HSBC customer, I'm afraid… I don't think I've ever had a serious problem with their internet banking and it's never told me off for using the wrong browser (I used to use Netscape 4 in the days when everyone else had moved on to Mozilla or IE; I now use SeaMonkey).

Their "Pay bill or organisation" system is a bit cumbersome as it's sometimes not possible to be 100% confident that the name you've picked is the right one for the organisation you are trying to pay; and for people such as HMRC who tell you the sort code and account number, if you opt to type those in instead of going via the menus it unhelpfully says "sorry Dave, we can't do that — try going via the menus instead". My MBNA credit card changed into a Bank of America credit card about four months ago, but they still don't have "Bank of America" as one of the payees. I emailed to point that out and got someone ringing me up to ask me what the problem was. But anyway…

First Direct do seem to have an interactive demo. But I haven't looked at it because I've been internet banking with them for lo these many years.

I get the feeling that FD and HSBC are quite separate in culture and ways-of-doing-things, though I can't substantiate that directly; my brother used to have a Midlands account and migrated to FD when they first started, just about, so he wasn't put off. As if that's any real help to you... Anyway I've been with FD for ages, they work well for me, I've recommended them to R who may well be taking me up on it, and unlike eg Halifax I find their internet banking pretty much just works, easily and straightforwardly.

They also reckon to be Carbon Trust accredited. (It said so, somewhere that I can't now see but still.)

*Nods*

That's my impression as well. I previously banked with IF for mortgage purposes, and having the ability to pay stuff in over an HSBC counter is a bonus when you need it.

I just looked at the online demo, and it does seem accurate.

j4 needs to be aware that some of their stuff, e.g. txt messages & their First Directory service, are extras that you pay for. I used the txts briefly when they were free, but didn't think they were worth it as a paid service.

*nods* HSBC performed an amazing fail after I moved from Cambridge to Oxford (but left my bank account at the Cambridge branch). 4 years in they decided my address (actually the departmental, a house on the Banbury Road) was 'insecure'. Obviously I would have to visit the branch, 3 hours drive away, to collect my cheque books and cards. No amount of pleading to get them to send stuff to the Oxford branch for collection would work. So I gave them an ultimatum to give me my cheque book and card by $FOO or I walked. They didn't, so I walked as far as RBS on St Giles and banked with them until I bought a house in Reading 10 years later, and moved my bank account to go with my mortgage.

I was very sceptical about First Direct because of this. However, so far I haven't been able to fault them. HSBC does have its sucky moments, but getting far better customer service and being able to pay in through its branch network seem to be an overall win.

Natwest's internet banking thinks it can't cope with iceweasel, but when I tell it that I'm using IE6 (honest guv) it works fine.

I've not had any problems using Natwest with Opera (10) or Firefox (2/3/3.5). Since nothing has gone wrong, I can't guarantee that their customer service people are any better, but on the plus side, nothing has [yet] gone wrong.

I've also found their branch network and phone-people to be generally more clued and helpful than other banks I've dealt with, too, although that might be a purely luck-with-individual-branches matter.

I (and

stripey_cat) also have an A-and-L rant that we should possibly post at some point.

That is quite, quite appalling.

I've used HSBC internet banking, and it isn't entirely failsome. It does have some stupid blind spots with regard to online statements. I have a few more problems with its ethicalness etc., but it's probably one of the least awful high street banks.

This isn't exactly a ringing endorsement, though.

Mm, see my comment above re HSBC... After they finally let me close my account I vowed that I wouldn't go near them again, but more and more I suspect that the banks are all just as bad as each other. Keeping my money in a shoebox under the mattress is starting to look quite appealing. :-}

I don't recall having had any problems with Lloyds, nor with Nationwide.

So long as you are not a business customer, then I think The Co-op is fine. Better than shAbbey were anyway.

However, if you wish to run a company with a Co-op account, then you may be better with your money heading to Lost Wages.

As a data point, the worst things I can say about Barclays' online banking are that it gets very pernickety about use of the "Back" key, that it is pretty proactive about logging people out and that it is noticeably heavy on (mostly announced) downtime. This relates to experiences with Firefox 3 on both Mac and Windows, and we've also not delved into the world of their code-generating (one-time pad-generating?) dongles, which are available as an extra level of verification.

In conclusion: not fun, but not so unacceptable as to make us change.

+1 for Barclays. I use the card-in-plastic-box thingum which is actually OK - ask for a spare one to keep elsewhere. I've used them since they started their online banking, and have used many different browsers and OSes in that time.

Currently to log in you need the internet account id number, your surname, the last four digits of your card, and the 8-digit number generated from the box you stick your card in, which is different every time. Previous to that it was a select-letters-from-your-secret-word thing, a bit like verified-by-visa. At least they're *trying* to make it more secure.

I feel that Barclays may be bastards, but at least they're my bastards. I don't feel inclined to change - Smile or Coop, I guess, but Smile gets a thumbs down elsewhere in this thread.

I've found both Nationwide and HSBC's online bankings to Generally Just Work.

Me too, and Nationwide have the advantages of being:

- still a building society
- somewhat ethical supposedly
- not HSBC :)
- no charges on foreign currency if/when abroad

They have a widget though. I like the fact I don't need a widget with HSBC.

Halifax's is OK. Everything else about them sucks, though.

If you're writing it up anyway, I'd be tempted to copy the complaint to Radio 4's Moneybox, which occasionally deals entertainingly with this kind of thing. I guess they only cover stuff when a number of people complain about similar issues, but, y'know, who knows? They have no email address that I can find, unfortunately, but have forms for contacting them at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/moneybox/891726.stm.

I picked Smile (the internet-only arm of the Co-op bank) as an irritatingly ethical teenager. It turns out that, as well as not investing your money in anything dodgy, they also give brilliant customer service - at least, I've never once had a problem with them that couldn't be solved immediately by giving them a call. And things that you need a branch for, like paying in cheques or getting emergency cash out when you lose your card, can be done through any branch of the Co-op.

Agreed. Have used Smile as online bank for a good long time without any issues (well I curse every time I stupidly hit "back" and it politely informs me that that isn't a very secure thing to do so could I log in again?) and their ethical policy is pretty solid.

If you want a bank that repeatedly breaches their contract with you and does their damnedest to avoid giving out information in response to a Subject Access Request, try Smile. Or if you'd prefer one that ignores attempts to change address or close the account, try Abbey^W Satan^W Name-of-the-week. Halifax is one to avoid too.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure there's a bank I could actually *recommend*. My business account with HSBC works fine, but I've not tried their personal banking.

Smile / Co-op does online banking very well. They have generally good customer service, and you can do the physical bits by going to a Post Office or Co-op shop, and withdraw cash from just about any cash machine (specifically, they're in the Link network). I don't think they're as "ethical" as they claim to be, and they are not very good for anything more complicated than just holding a current account with them. I've had a vanilla current account with them for, oh, 9 years now (since Lloyds pissed me off). I have never had a serious problem with them, and they have been helpful and prompt in sorting out minor problems.

The caveat is that I've mostly been using Firefox under Windows; I can't absolutely promise you that their system will work with more obscure browsers / OSs. Also, they do insist on that annoying "Verified by Visa" thing for online shopping; it's pretty hard to get out of that these days, but if that's a big principle thing for you, Smile won't work.

smile wfm in opera/linux, iceweasel/linux, ie/windows, links/linux ... I think they're pretty good on obscure browsers.

I've never had any problems with the Lloyds website, but then I only use it for the occasional transfer (maybe a dozen per year).

I wouldn't wish to recommend Royal Bank of Scotland as a bank - Fred the Shred etc - but have not (yet) taken my accounts away from them largely because their internet banking seems to work without causing me any problems. In the past it was IE only, but now works fine with Firefox; you need the 'card in plastic box' business only for a few functions (e.g. setting up new payee); and it doesn't inflict "Verified by Visa" on you.
I had been thinking about opening an account at A&L, but this thread has probably persuaded me otherwise.

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my mind my mind my simple lady mind

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