(Incidentally, if you're actively opposed to risky practices then I suspect there are one or two other items on my list which you might disapprove of...)
OK, I took a long bath today and spent a fair bit of time therein thinking about BDSM. Now this is slightly awkward for me to type not because I'm uncomfortable with the issues or with discussing them in public, but because (a) I have no practical experience in the matter and all my knowledge is based on reading only, so quite possibly completely inaccurate, and (b) what you do there isn't your own business just for you singular.
I know you're happy with talking about what you like to do and what you've done, but I'm going to refer to your BDSM experience with other people. I don't know who your BDSM play partner has (or partners have) been, I don't regard their identity as my business and I would hate to offend your BDSM play partners by asking for information that they regard as not my business. (I would hate to offend you too, but I am convinced you are unlikely to be offended by what I'm about to say.)
Nevertheless, two phrases you've used recently really got me thinking. You've said that you like to be made to beg and you've also referred to "safe, sane and boring" in the past when I've only ever previously heard reference to "safe, sane and consensual".
Accordingly - and I'm wildly hypothesising here and fully prepared to be told that I'm completely barking up the wrong tree, possibly embarrassingly so - I imply from these that you enjoy, quite probably among other things, the type of edge play (am I misusing a technical term here?) where you try to push your body to the limit; you may even have denied yourself safeword ability to stop a scene when you feel your body has reached its maximum tolerance. Only in the bath did I fully realise what a scary concept that is when taken to its logical conclusion. (However, if you've found it works for you, I'm pleased and somewhat impressed.) I don't have a problem with this in the same way that I do have with chemical stimulants - which, by contrast, I do not find even slightly impressive - and I am not sure why.
A second other item of which I might disapprove? I find it difficult to imagine what the second is, which tends to suggest that I don't understand it properly, whatever it is. :-)
My best guess might be that your penchant for weapon play is for the type where you come very close indeed to inflicting or receiving grievous, possibly permanent, bodily wounds - full-strength blows with a sharp sword blade which miss by inches or less, that sort of thing. That would certainly be highly risky, yet I wouldn't disapprove of it in the same way that I do of chemical stimulants.
I haven't considered the sorts of things that an out-of-control recipient body is likely to do when the method of being driven out of control is a physical stimulant rather than a chemical one, but I can't imagine there could be an analogue to "drunk driving" or "stoned driving" for hurt and/or scared beyond boundaries conventionally considered reasonable. (Maybe there is and I just don't know about it.) I also dislike the perceived creativity increase that is sometimes attributed to the drunk, the stoned or the high and again can't imagine there can be an analogue pertaining to BDSM play. I think this is probably more an issue and an inconsistency for me to work out than anything else.
Does any of that make sense? Incidentally I don't want to "convert" you; I respect your opinion, and your right to disagree with me. But I do care about your opinion of me, so I want to explain myself as much as possible.
Thank you for a full, detailed, fascinating and very respectful response. I think we have identified where our differences of opinion are. As you say, you haven't been trying to convert me, but I feel a little uneasy that we might have come to such radically different conclusions from the same information; accordingly, I suspect you may have been working from different information to me, so I am keen to expand my own perspective by seeing information that you might have seen which I hadn't. It may not make me change my mind, but at least I'll feel more well-informed in my decisions.
I don't like safewords; if I can't trust somebody to read me correctly -- and if I can't trust myself to make myself understood unambiguously with them -- then I don't want to put myself in that kind of situation with them. I've rarely used safewords, and haven't found myself being pushed beyond where I want to go. Maybe there are types of "play" (I hate the term, but it'll do for now) where it's the only sensible way to do things -- maybe they're just not my thing.
[...] I don't have a problem with this in the same way that I do have with chemical stimulants - which, by contrast, I do not find even slightly impressive - and I am not sure why.
I'm confused by the idea of being (or not being) "impressed" by either of these things. I don't see them in that light at all. They're not achievements -- except, I suppose, insofar as it's an achievement to pursue one's desires and interests.
My best guess might be that your penchant for weapon play is for the type where you come very close indeed to inflicting or receiving grievous, possibly permanent, bodily wounds - full-strength blows with a sharp sword blade which miss by inches or less, that sort of thing.
Hmmm. Actually, swords tend to be a bit unwieldy for "play" (and I know very few people whose swordsmanship would even come close to being good enough for me to trust them with something like you describe!). I tend to prefer knives -- much easier to control. And wounds (even "permanent" ones) needn't be dangerous, provided the people inflicting them know some basic anatomy.
I'm really not sure how much you want to know here. People tend to hit the limits of TMI a lot quicker in this area than most others, so I'm not going to go any further with this except in answer to direct questions.
I can't imagine there could be an analogue to "drunk driving" or "stoned driving" for hurt and/or scared beyond boundaries conventionally considered reasonable.
Personally I wouldn't even dream of driving soon after intense BDSM play. Driving too soon after good vanilla sex is bad enough -- the endorphin high makes me completely dazed and unable to concentrate or focus properly. Maybe that's just me, though.
I also dislike the perceived creativity increase that is sometimes attributed to the drunk, the stoned or the high
Hmmm. I don't think chemical stimulants will produce creativity which isn't already there. I think sometimes they release confidence in that creativity which is usually buried; but I think it's more that the experiences provide input, raw material, which the creative person can use. Grist to a writer's mill, and all that.
I could be completely wrong, of course. It's a bit hard to do a scientific experiment to determine whether creativity's innate, learned, or bestowed by drugs. Nature, nurture, Nietzsche. Moo.
and again can't imagine there can be an analogue pertaining to BDSM play.
Pain (at least, certain types of pain) centres me on myself, makes me feel that I am becoming closer to who I really am. It's as if there's a core of fire at the centre of me -- most of the time that fire is buried, hidden, stifled; but pain sets it free. If that's not a stimulus to creativity I'm not sure what is.
I feel a little uneasy that we might have come to such radically different conclusions from the same information [...]
Most of my information is experiential rather than authoritative. On the other hand, you've made me feel that perhaps I should check out some more statistics, some more facts and figures... Maybe I will. The problem is, it's very hard to get facts on drugs which aren't being used for propagandist aims... actually, no, the problem is that any "facts" are malleable, and are usually being used to further somebody's agenda. I don't trust "facts". At one extreme there's the people who say that drugs are perfectly safe; at the other extreme there's Lorna Thingy's parents who KNOW that DRUGS ARE EVIL. The truth, as Kate Bush says, "lies somewhere in the middle".
Rambling now. Feeling only half-awake still, and not at my most coherent, I'm afraid. Hope some of this made sense.
Perhaps more appropriate for BDSM activities between relative strangers? Personally the only occasion I can think of where someone went beyond what I was happy with I was quite able to communicate my objection to it without using a safeword.
I'm confused by the idea of being (or not being) "impressed" by either of these things. I don't see them in that light at all. They're not achievements -- except, I suppose, insofar as it's an achievement to pursue one's desires and interests.
This knocked me sideways. I was thinking about it while mowing and raking the lawn this afternoon and realised just how goal-oriented I am, even in situations like this where being so overtly goal-oriented cannot be helpful. Hadn't thought of things like that in that sort of way before.
Finding something which works for you is definitely an achievement, though I'm not sure whether finding something or the act of looking for something is more valuable.
I think I'll cut this short here, not through objection to the subject matter, but because I realise I need to do more thinking on the subject - probably not just hours or days' more, but mulling over it for a long time.
Apologies also for using inappropriate terminology. I know I hate it when Dad tries to have conversations about technical things with me - he keeps wanting to know where all this data on the Internet is at any moment. It's a pain largely because he just doesn't get it - and even patient, repeated, slow re-education doesn't fundamentally help. I have a strong feeling that I'm touching on subjects that, in the same way, I just don't get... yet. Perhaps things will start to make more sense when I have more experience of the world.
Hope some of this made sense.
Loud and clear. Thank you for your very straight talking on the subject.
Finding something which works for you is definitely an achievement, though I'm not sure whether finding something or the act of looking for something is more valuable.
Personally I lean towards the idea that the act of looking is more valuable; I think that's because I believe that we make our own goals, so the actual achievement of a goal is only as important as we make it. Er, it all gets a bit circular here...
Apologies also for using inappropriate terminology.
I don't think you did, did you? If you mean my objection to the word "play" in a BDSM context, it's the most widely-used term, it's almost certainly the "right" term to use when talking about it because it's the most widely-understood, I just personally don't really like it. Not sure why; it's certainly not that I think it's "too serious" to be described as "play" or anything like that. I think it's all part of my rather complicated hangups about the BDSM "community", and communities in general.
Anyway, I'm glad I've given you stuff to think about, even if it turns out that you come back and say "j4, you're talking absolute rubbish!" -- the process of thinking and debating etc. is usually a lot more interesting IMHO than the specifics of the conclusion. :-) (Back to the journey vs destination thing again...)
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Re: long comment (both parts, my second part)
Date: 2003-05-19 08:20 pm (UTC)OK, I took a long bath today and spent a fair bit of time therein thinking about BDSM. Now this is slightly awkward for me to type not because I'm uncomfortable with the issues or with discussing them in public, but because (a) I have no practical experience in the matter and all my knowledge is based on reading only, so quite possibly completely inaccurate, and (b) what you do there isn't your own business just for you singular.
I know you're happy with talking about what you like to do and what you've done, but I'm going to refer to your BDSM experience with other people. I don't know who your BDSM play partner has (or partners have) been, I don't regard their identity as my business and I would hate to offend your BDSM play partners by asking for information that they regard as not my business. (I would hate to offend you too, but I am convinced you are unlikely to be offended by what I'm about to say.)
Nevertheless, two phrases you've used recently really got me thinking. You've said that you like to be made to beg and you've also referred to "safe, sane and boring" in the past when I've only ever previously heard reference to "safe, sane and consensual".
Accordingly - and I'm wildly hypothesising here and fully prepared to be told that I'm completely barking up the wrong tree, possibly embarrassingly so - I imply from these that you enjoy, quite probably among other things, the type of edge play (am I misusing a technical term here?) where you try to push your body to the limit; you may even have denied yourself safeword ability to stop a scene when you feel your body has reached its maximum tolerance. Only in the bath did I fully realise what a scary concept that is when taken to its logical conclusion. (However, if you've found it works for you, I'm pleased and somewhat impressed.) I don't have a problem with this in the same way that I do have with chemical stimulants - which, by contrast, I do not find even slightly impressive - and I am not sure why.
A second other item of which I might disapprove? I find it difficult to imagine what the second is, which tends to suggest that I don't understand it properly, whatever it is. :-)
My best guess might be that your penchant for weapon play is for the type where you come very close indeed to inflicting or receiving grievous, possibly permanent, bodily wounds - full-strength blows with a sharp sword blade which miss by inches or less, that sort of thing. That would certainly be highly risky, yet I wouldn't disapprove of it in the same way that I do of chemical stimulants.
I haven't considered the sorts of things that an out-of-control recipient body is likely to do when the method of being driven out of control is a physical stimulant rather than a chemical one, but I can't imagine there could be an analogue to "drunk driving" or "stoned driving" for hurt and/or scared beyond boundaries conventionally considered reasonable. (Maybe there is and I just don't know about it.) I also dislike the perceived creativity increase that is sometimes attributed to the drunk, the stoned or the high and again can't imagine there can be an analogue pertaining to BDSM play. I think this is probably more an issue and an inconsistency for me to work out than anything else.
Does any of that make sense? Incidentally I don't want to "convert" you; I respect your opinion, and your right to disagree with me. But I do care about your opinion of me, so I want to explain myself as much as possible.
Thank you for a full, detailed, fascinating and very respectful response. I think we have identified where our differences of opinion are. As you say, you haven't been trying to convert me, but I feel a little uneasy that we might have come to such radically different conclusions from the same information; accordingly, I suspect you may have been working from different information to me, so I am keen to expand my own perspective by seeing information that you might have seen which I hadn't. It may not make me change my mind, but at least I'll feel more well-informed in my decisions.
Re: long comment (both parts, my second part)
Date: 2003-05-21 03:36 am (UTC)You infer correctly.
I don't like safewords; if I can't trust somebody to read me correctly -- and if I can't trust myself to make myself understood unambiguously with them -- then I don't want to put myself in that kind of situation with them. I've rarely used safewords, and haven't found myself being pushed beyond where I want to go. Maybe there are types of "play" (I hate the term, but it'll do for now) where it's the only sensible way to do things -- maybe they're just not my thing.
[...] I don't have a problem with this in the same way that I do have with chemical stimulants - which, by contrast, I do not find even slightly impressive - and I am not sure why.
I'm confused by the idea of being (or not being) "impressed" by either of these things. I don't see them in that light at all. They're not achievements -- except, I suppose, insofar as it's an achievement to pursue one's desires and interests.
My best guess might be that your penchant for weapon play is for the type where you come very close indeed to inflicting or receiving grievous, possibly permanent, bodily wounds - full-strength blows with a sharp sword blade which miss by inches or less, that sort of thing.
Hmmm. Actually, swords tend to be a bit unwieldy for "play" (and I know very few people whose swordsmanship would even come close to being good enough for me to trust them with something like you describe!). I tend to prefer knives -- much easier to control. And wounds (even "permanent" ones) needn't be dangerous, provided the people inflicting them know some basic anatomy.
I'm really not sure how much you want to know here. People tend to hit the limits of TMI a lot quicker in this area than most others, so I'm not going to go any further with this except in answer to direct questions.
I can't imagine there could be an analogue to "drunk driving" or "stoned driving" for hurt and/or scared beyond boundaries conventionally considered reasonable.
Personally I wouldn't even dream of driving soon after intense BDSM play. Driving too soon after good vanilla sex is bad enough -- the endorphin high makes me completely dazed and unable to concentrate or focus properly. Maybe that's just me, though.
I also dislike the perceived creativity increase that is sometimes attributed to the drunk, the stoned or the high
Hmmm. I don't think chemical stimulants will produce creativity which isn't already there. I think sometimes they release confidence in that creativity which is usually buried; but I think it's more that the experiences provide input, raw material, which the creative person can use. Grist to a writer's mill, and all that.
I could be completely wrong, of course. It's a bit hard to do a scientific experiment to determine whether creativity's innate, learned, or bestowed by drugs. Nature, nurture, Nietzsche. Moo.
and again can't imagine there can be an analogue pertaining to BDSM play.
Pain (at least, certain types of pain) centres me on myself, makes me feel that I am becoming closer to who I really am. It's as if there's a core of fire at the centre of me -- most of the time that fire is buried, hidden, stifled; but pain sets it free. If that's not a stimulus to creativity I'm not sure what is.
I feel a little uneasy that we might have come to such radically different conclusions from the same information [...]
Most of my information is experiential rather than authoritative. On the other hand, you've made me feel that perhaps I should check out some more statistics, some more facts and figures... Maybe I will. The problem is, it's very hard to get facts on drugs which aren't being used for propagandist aims... actually, no, the problem is that any "facts" are malleable, and are usually being used to further somebody's agenda. I don't trust "facts". At one extreme there's the people who say that drugs are perfectly safe; at the other extreme there's Lorna Thingy's parents who KNOW that DRUGS ARE EVIL. The truth, as Kate Bush says, "lies somewhere in the middle".
Rambling now. Feeling only half-awake still, and not at my most coherent, I'm afraid. Hope some of this made sense.
Re: long comment (both parts, my second part)
Date: 2003-05-21 07:20 am (UTC)I don't like safewords [...]
Perhaps more appropriate for BDSM activities between relative strangers? Personally the only occasion I can think of where someone went beyond what I was happy with I was quite able to communicate my objection to it without using a safeword.
Re: long comment (both parts, my second part)
Date: 2003-05-21 08:52 pm (UTC)This knocked me sideways. I was thinking about it while mowing and raking the lawn this afternoon and realised just how goal-oriented I am, even in situations like this where being so overtly goal-oriented cannot be helpful. Hadn't thought of things like that in that sort of way before.
Finding something which works for you is definitely an achievement, though I'm not sure whether finding something or the act of looking for something is more valuable.
I think I'll cut this short here, not through objection to the subject matter, but because I realise I need to do more thinking on the subject - probably not just hours or days' more, but mulling over it for a long time.
Apologies also for using inappropriate terminology. I know I hate it when Dad tries to have conversations about technical things with me - he keeps wanting to know where all this data on the Internet is at any moment. It's a pain largely because he just doesn't get it - and even patient, repeated, slow re-education doesn't fundamentally help. I have a strong feeling that I'm touching on subjects that, in the same way, I just don't get... yet. Perhaps things will start to make more sense when I have more experience of the world.
Hope some of this made sense.
Loud and clear. Thank you for your very straight talking on the subject.
Re: long comment (both parts, my second part)
Date: 2003-05-23 04:00 am (UTC)Personally I lean towards the idea that the act of looking is more valuable; I think that's because I believe that we make our own goals, so the actual achievement of a goal is only as important as we make it. Er, it all gets a bit circular here...
Apologies also for using inappropriate terminology.
I don't think you did, did you? If you mean my objection to the word "play" in a BDSM context, it's the most widely-used term, it's almost certainly the "right" term to use when talking about it because it's the most widely-understood, I just personally don't really like it. Not sure why; it's certainly not that I think it's "too serious" to be described as "play" or anything like that. I think it's all part of my rather complicated hangups about the BDSM "community", and communities in general.
Anyway, I'm glad I've given you stuff to think about, even if it turns out that you come back and say "